A Classless Society
QUERIES ON VARNASRAMA
FROM MAURITIUS - JUNE 13, 2009
(1) What is the difference between "varnasrama" and "daivi varnasrama"?
(2) In Satya Yuga there was only one caste or varna called hamsa, so who were doing the administrative and agricultural duties?
(3) What does Srila Prabhupada means when he says "...we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business"?
Response from Bhakti Raghava Swami
QUESTION (1)
What is the difference between "varnasrama" and "daivi varnasrama"?
RESPONSE TO QUESTION (1)
In the ultimate sense there is no difference. It is like asking what is the difference between a brahmana and a pure brahmana. A brahmana is meant to be pure by definition. Similarly, varnasrama is meant to be "daivi" or "divine" by nature. In Srila Prabhupada's explanations this means based on Krishna consciousness.
Srila Prabhupada adds the word "daivi" to differentiate between the ordinary varnasrama system where the center or focus is not on Krishna and devotional service. That varnasrama system which is not based on devotional service to Krishna is referred to as "asuric varnasrama", or "materialistic varnasrama".
The difference between the two is most important. As Vaisnavas, we are simply not interested in the material system of varnasrama which is meant to bring various material benefits, including the possibility of liberation, but rather we are interested in performing devotional service following the simplest and most practical material system given to us by Lord Krishna, varnasrama dharma, with Krishna and devotional service at the center. Such varnasrama system becomes transformed in devotional activities and leads one beyond mere material well-being or even liberation, but to pure love of Krishna, Krishna Prema. That system is called "daivi-varnasrama" as opposed to "asuric varnasrama". As Srila Prabhupada explains in one of his lectures:
"My Guru Maharaja also wanted to establish daiva-varnarama. Yes. There must be the human society, not this asuric varnasrama... Just like Ravana. He was also son of a brahmana, but he was rejected, that "You are not brahmana; you are raksasa because you do not care for Bhagavan Ramacandra." So this is the verdict of the ssastra. So therefore daiva-varnasrama. Varnasrama should be established on the principles of devata, to make people devata. Devata means vishnu bhaktah bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayah. Unless one is not a Vaisnava, he cannot be a devata. He cannot be a civilized man.[Lectures, SB 5.5.29, Vrndavana, November 16, 1976]
QUESTION (2)
In Satya yuga there was only one caste or varna called hamsa, so who were doing the administrative and agricultural duties?
RESPONSE TO QUESTION (2)
Administration is needed when there is need to protect property and citizens and to keep law and order in society. Since in Satya Yuga everyone was on the spiritual platform, brahman realized, there was no vice and therefore no need for such administration; hence there were no ksatriyas.
The earth was providing naturally for all the residents. They did not have to cultivate the land but lived off the natural gifts of nature. There were no vaisyas nor where there any sudras.
"Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained this as follows. In former ages such as Satya-yuga human beings were perfectly qualified and easily performed even the most difficult spiritual processes, meditating for many thousands of years practically without eating or sleeping." [SB 11.5.37]
QUESTION (3)
What does Srila Prabhupada means when he says "...we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business...."?
RESPONSE TO QUESTION (3)
This is a very good point you raise. I am giving here below a more complete reference to the conversation between Srila Prabhupada and some devotees while adding my comments in a few places:
[From Room Conversation, Sri Mayapur, February 14, 1977]
Prabhupada: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarupa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...
Prabhupada: But you take. You show them.
Hari-Sauri: That's why we say, "we."
Prabhupada: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari-Sauri: No.
This is a subtle point but a very important one. Srila Prabhupada wanted us to adopt or act out the system of varnasrama as like in a play or drama where individuals take up some role (in this case the 4 varnas and 4 asramas) but actually remain themselves (Vaisnavas, eternal servants of Krishna, free from all material designations). So in this sense, we do not become actual sudras (which generally means under the mode of ignorance... so we will not become under the mode of ignorance even if we take up that role) but simply act out that role. In the Gita, 4.13, we find this most important verse:
catur varnyam maya sristam guna karma vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam viddy akartaram avyayam
"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."
The words "guna" and "karma" need to be understood properly. For someone who is not a devotee, "guna" [quality] refers to consciousness influenced by the three modes of material nature [hence for a non-devotee sudra, it means consciousness covered by tama-guna, ignorance] while "karma" [work or occupation] refers to "motivated activity". However, for someone who is a devotee, "guna" [quality] refers to consciousness not (or less) influenced by the three modes of material nature [hence for a devotee-sudra, it means mixed consciousness in devotional service or even possibly pure consciousness] while "karma" [work or occupation] refers to "un-motivated activity" or what we call devotional service.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura cleanly states that even within varnasrama, activities performed for the pleasure of the Lord become devotional activities. Here is the quote:
From "Sri Bhaktyaloka, Six Faults that destroy bhakti" (Bhaktivinoda Thakura)
"But a devotee who desires to properly pass his life still accepts his duties according to varnasrama, as those duties are favorable to devotional service and counted as part of devotional service. All these activities are no longer called karma."
The conversation continues:
Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari-Sauri: Well, again, that's...
Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krishna. That's all. And as servant of Krishna, we have to execute the order of Krishna.
So Srila Prabhupada means by "not necessarily that we are going to be sudra" that we will not take on the "guna" of a sudra, although we may play out or should play out the role, occupation or "karma" of a sudra. There is a subtle but very essential difference here.
Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
The "yes" given by Srila Prabhupada is referring to the idea he previously mentioned, i.e. that as devotees we should play out the roles in varnasrama (including the occupation of sudra although we will not become sudras). But I tend to think that the devotees hearing this were not having this understanding.
Bhavananda: Set the example.
Prabhupada: Example. Just like Bhavananda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyasii Vaisnava. Similarly, apani acari' jive ssikhaila. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am not a sannyasii." But He took sannyasa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyasi, for God? But He became that. [break] In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.
"Not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business" means that for Vaisnavas, it is not our main business or goal to become members of the varnasrama system, our main goal, our main business is to become devotees of Krishna. As Srila Prabhupada has stated in this exchange, why should Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu stoop to become a sannyasi since he is God Himself. Is a sannyasi superior to God? No. Are any of the varnas within the varnasrama system superior to a Vaisnava? No. But to teach society at large, we must introduce the varnasrama system. i.e. play out the roles of the four varnas and the four asramas. Why would Srila Prabhupada speak about setting up varnasrama colleges where he expected us to provide training and education in the four varnas and the four asramas?
The following exchange is also there in the same conversation:
Prabhupada: "Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy."
For small scale, means for only brahmanas and sannyasis (now we are picking some of them, best), we do not need the varnasrama system, but for large scale propaganda and for large scale change within the greater society, means going beyond making brahmanas and sannyasis (Srila Prabhupada's main focus in the beginning was to create a class of brahmanas) it is necessary to introduce varnasrama.
We also need to keep in mind that at times Srila Prabhupada would adjust his position or adjust his statements, giving sometimes more or sometimes less emphasis on certain things. In one exchange he states that our own devotees, even senior ones, are falling down and because of this, we need to introduce varnasrama, means not only for the people "outside" our Hare Krishna society, but for the members of our own society as well.
(1) What is the difference between "varnasrama" and "daivi varnasrama"?
(2) In Satya Yuga there was only one caste or varna called hamsa, so who were doing the administrative and agricultural duties?
(3) What does Srila Prabhupada means when he says "...we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business"?
Response from Bhakti Raghava Swami
QUESTION (1)
What is the difference between "varnasrama" and "daivi varnasrama"?
RESPONSE TO QUESTION (1)
In the ultimate sense there is no difference. It is like asking what is the difference between a brahmana and a pure brahmana. A brahmana is meant to be pure by definition. Similarly, varnasrama is meant to be "daivi" or "divine" by nature. In Srila Prabhupada's explanations this means based on Krishna consciousness.
Srila Prabhupada adds the word "daivi" to differentiate between the ordinary varnasrama system where the center or focus is not on Krishna and devotional service. That varnasrama system which is not based on devotional service to Krishna is referred to as "asuric varnasrama", or "materialistic varnasrama".
The difference between the two is most important. As Vaisnavas, we are simply not interested in the material system of varnasrama which is meant to bring various material benefits, including the possibility of liberation, but rather we are interested in performing devotional service following the simplest and most practical material system given to us by Lord Krishna, varnasrama dharma, with Krishna and devotional service at the center. Such varnasrama system becomes transformed in devotional activities and leads one beyond mere material well-being or even liberation, but to pure love of Krishna, Krishna Prema. That system is called "daivi-varnasrama" as opposed to "asuric varnasrama". As Srila Prabhupada explains in one of his lectures:
"My Guru Maharaja also wanted to establish daiva-varnarama. Yes. There must be the human society, not this asuric varnasrama... Just like Ravana. He was also son of a brahmana, but he was rejected, that "You are not brahmana; you are raksasa because you do not care for Bhagavan Ramacandra." So this is the verdict of the ssastra. So therefore daiva-varnasrama. Varnasrama should be established on the principles of devata, to make people devata. Devata means vishnu bhaktah bhaved daiva asuras tad-viparyayah. Unless one is not a Vaisnava, he cannot be a devata. He cannot be a civilized man.[Lectures, SB 5.5.29, Vrndavana, November 16, 1976]
QUESTION (2)
In Satya yuga there was only one caste or varna called hamsa, so who were doing the administrative and agricultural duties?
RESPONSE TO QUESTION (2)
Administration is needed when there is need to protect property and citizens and to keep law and order in society. Since in Satya Yuga everyone was on the spiritual platform, brahman realized, there was no vice and therefore no need for such administration; hence there were no ksatriyas.
The earth was providing naturally for all the residents. They did not have to cultivate the land but lived off the natural gifts of nature. There were no vaisyas nor where there any sudras.
"Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained this as follows. In former ages such as Satya-yuga human beings were perfectly qualified and easily performed even the most difficult spiritual processes, meditating for many thousands of years practically without eating or sleeping." [SB 11.5.37]
QUESTION (3)
What does Srila Prabhupada means when he says "...we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business...."?
RESPONSE TO QUESTION (3)
This is a very good point you raise. I am giving here below a more complete reference to the conversation between Srila Prabhupada and some devotees while adding my comments in a few places:
[From Room Conversation, Sri Mayapur, February 14, 1977]
Prabhupada: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarupa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...
Prabhupada: But you take. You show them.
Hari-Sauri: That's why we say, "we."
Prabhupada: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Hari-Sauri: No.
This is a subtle point but a very important one. Srila Prabhupada wanted us to adopt or act out the system of varnasrama as like in a play or drama where individuals take up some role (in this case the 4 varnas and 4 asramas) but actually remain themselves (Vaisnavas, eternal servants of Krishna, free from all material designations). So in this sense, we do not become actual sudras (which generally means under the mode of ignorance... so we will not become under the mode of ignorance even if we take up that role) but simply act out that role. In the Gita, 4.13, we find this most important verse:
catur varnyam maya sristam guna karma vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam viddy akartaram avyayam
"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."
The words "guna" and "karma" need to be understood properly. For someone who is not a devotee, "guna" [quality] refers to consciousness influenced by the three modes of material nature [hence for a non-devotee sudra, it means consciousness covered by tama-guna, ignorance] while "karma" [work or occupation] refers to "motivated activity". However, for someone who is a devotee, "guna" [quality] refers to consciousness not (or less) influenced by the three modes of material nature [hence for a devotee-sudra, it means mixed consciousness in devotional service or even possibly pure consciousness] while "karma" [work or occupation] refers to "un-motivated activity" or what we call devotional service.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura cleanly states that even within varnasrama, activities performed for the pleasure of the Lord become devotional activities. Here is the quote:
From "Sri Bhaktyaloka, Six Faults that destroy bhakti" (Bhaktivinoda Thakura)
"But a devotee who desires to properly pass his life still accepts his duties according to varnasrama, as those duties are favorable to devotional service and counted as part of devotional service. All these activities are no longer called karma."
The conversation continues:
Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari-Sauri: Well, again, that's...
Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krishna. That's all. And as servant of Krishna, we have to execute the order of Krishna.
So Srila Prabhupada means by "not necessarily that we are going to be sudra" that we will not take on the "guna" of a sudra, although we may play out or should play out the role, occupation or "karma" of a sudra. There is a subtle but very essential difference here.
Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
The "yes" given by Srila Prabhupada is referring to the idea he previously mentioned, i.e. that as devotees we should play out the roles in varnasrama (including the occupation of sudra although we will not become sudras). But I tend to think that the devotees hearing this were not having this understanding.
Bhavananda: Set the example.
Prabhupada: Example. Just like Bhavananda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyasii Vaisnava. Similarly, apani acari' jive ssikhaila. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am not a sannyasii." But He took sannyasa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyasi, for God? But He became that. [break] In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.
"Not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business" means that for Vaisnavas, it is not our main business or goal to become members of the varnasrama system, our main goal, our main business is to become devotees of Krishna. As Srila Prabhupada has stated in this exchange, why should Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu stoop to become a sannyasi since he is God Himself. Is a sannyasi superior to God? No. Are any of the varnas within the varnasrama system superior to a Vaisnava? No. But to teach society at large, we must introduce the varnasrama system. i.e. play out the roles of the four varnas and the four asramas. Why would Srila Prabhupada speak about setting up varnasrama colleges where he expected us to provide training and education in the four varnas and the four asramas?
The following exchange is also there in the same conversation:
Prabhupada: "Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brahmanas or sannyasis. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Krishna consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Krishna's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnasrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy."
For small scale, means for only brahmanas and sannyasis (now we are picking some of them, best), we do not need the varnasrama system, but for large scale propaganda and for large scale change within the greater society, means going beyond making brahmanas and sannyasis (Srila Prabhupada's main focus in the beginning was to create a class of brahmanas) it is necessary to introduce varnasrama.
We also need to keep in mind that at times Srila Prabhupada would adjust his position or adjust his statements, giving sometimes more or sometimes less emphasis on certain things. In one exchange he states that our own devotees, even senior ones, are falling down and because of this, we need to introduce varnasrama, means not only for the people "outside" our Hare Krishna society, but for the members of our own society as well.
Comment
About
Badge
the 4th wave of HDG Srila Prabhupada Movement : Establishment of a classless varnasrama society
© 2009 Created by Mahvir Das on Ning. Create a Ning Network!
You need to be a member of Daivy Varnasrama to add comments!
Join this Ning Network